Ok, I agree with the non-debate format and I am happy to state my beliefs. They will be controversial but I shall not reply.

The planet we live on was formed millions of years ago as a unique environment with water and oxygen saturated air. No other planet has the ability (water, atmosphere and the consequential ability to generate growth), to promote a life organism. I don't know where the organisms came from or how they started but I am inclined to go with Darwin's theories, i.e,. that the species develops over time.

Darwin's theories have been castigated by non-logical bodies for decades but he makes more sense than anyone who says God formed man and his fellow creatures. That is impossible because God lives only in our minds (that we hallow Him is for the good of man, but He is within us, not without us).

While speaking about God we have to remember that the creation of Earth, Man and animal is such a wondrous thing that it appears that there must be a superior being to create it all. In fact Nature, using the elements of water, oxygen and the tiny growth stimulated by this environment, brought life to Earth . If man wishes to relate any event in the formation of Earth to a God so be it. If man seeks refuge in a God or pays thanks to a God, that is fine.

So, being a Realist , and an incredibly sceptical person, I see no living God except in our minds. That is not to say that I do not pay homage to the God in my mind. I often need someone to talk to and thank and bow down to for blessings received. That God exists, for sure, and we need Him but He manifests Himself in our whole being.

An incredibly difficult question to answer but I may have gone some of the way.

Good question, Question of the Day.


God exists in a state of timelessness, "I am who am". Ex. 3:14. I believe there is only one God--the Divine Trinity---the inifnite First Cause who created all that exists (from nothing "ex nihilo") including space, time and matter.

God primarily instituted Creation for the revelation of His Perfection and 2ndly, so that His creatures, the angels humans could share eternally with Him.

God's Creation of the Universe is recorded in the first book of Moses called Genesis. Chapter one provides the unfolding of Creation
Genesis 1:3-5 Day 1 God creates Light
1:6-8 2 Water and Sky
1:9-13 3 Land and vegetation
1:14-19 4 Sun, moon and stars
1:20-23 5 Fish and Birds
1:24-31 6 Beasts and Man
2:1-3 7 The day God "rested".

Exodus 20:11 is quite specific about the time chosen by God in which to unfold His Creation.."...in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day."

Not only was matter created, but also organization of matter was created. Laws of nature was placed into operation by which matter and energy, space and time both exist and interact.

As a believer I definitely believe in the six day creation. For one reason it's the language used in Genesis. The word for day is Yom.

Yôm used with numbers ('first day', 'second day', 'third day', etc.) and with the words 'evening and morning always refers to a normal 24–hour day. God intended to convey that the days of creation were 24 hours long.

Professor James Barr, professor of Hebrew at Oxford University agrees that the words used in Genesis 1 refer to 'a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience', and he says that he knows of no professor of Hebrew at any leading university who would say otherwise.

There are other words he could have used to denote a period of time and they were not used, like qedem which is the main one–word term for 'ancient' and is sometimes translated 'of old'; olam means 'everlasting' or 'eternity' and is translated 'perpetual', 'of old' or 'for ever'; dor means 'a revolution of time' or 'an age' and is sometimes translated 'generations'; tamid means 'continually' or 'for ever'; ad means 'unlimited time' or 'for ever'; orek when used with yôm is translated 'length of days'; shanah means 'a year' or 'a revolution of time' (from the change of seasons); netsach means 'for ever'. Words for a shorter time span include eth (a general term for time); and moed, meaning 'seasons' or 'festivals'.

So while we just have one word for day, the Hebrew language has many words with diff meanings. We can say....."in my day I was quite the looker." Well that doesn't mean one day. "It was the day of rock n' roll" Again, not a specific one day period. But we don't have any other words like the Hebrews had.

Another thing that most people overlook when they use their bible is Ex 20:10-11. When Moses went up to get the 10 commandments there was a pattern for him to follow regarding the Sabbath Day. This is what it said:

"But the 7th day is the sabbath of the Lord your God: in it you shall not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth the sea and all that is in them and rested the 7th day; Wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath Day and hallowed it."

If creation were not a 7 day cycle as we believe, than what did Moses write down here concerning the Sabbath? God was telling him that creation was a pattern for the Jews to follow. God worked for six days and rested on the 7th. Was he telling them to work for 6,000 years and on the 7,000 take a thousand year off?

Later Christ would tell the people He was their rest. As the OT celebrated creation on the 7th day so too did those of the New Covenant celebrate the first day of the week in celebration of the rest they now had in Christ. They were redeemed and they were to celebrate this on the first day. He was the Sabbath rest of the OT.

Here's a great link:

Link

I see that the columns got misaligned. I'll try again.

On Day 1-------------------God created-----------------------Light

On Day 2-----------------------------------------------------Water and Sky

On Day 3----------------------------------------------Land and vegetation

On Day 4----------------------------------------------------Sun, moon and stars

On Day 5----------------------------------------------------Fish and Birds


On Day 6--------------------------------------------------------Beasts and Man

On Day 7-------------------------------------------------------The day God "rested".


So, God created galaxies, stars, the solar system, all types of plants, animals birds and other life forms and human beings, in His Image and likeness, complete with rational souls from which we have understanding and free will. Since Earth was to be the home of God's crowning achievement of Creation (mankind) , this explains why Earth was given pride of place in the Creation account.

I believe that God created space, time and matter only about 6,000 years ago (in time as measured now on earth) and specifically created each "kind" of life form in fairly rapid succession and set genetic variation into operation to allow subsequent micro 'evolutionary' changes within kind.

So, for me, Earth was created along with the rest of the Universe about 6,000 years ago, (earth time). The Creation days were really each 24 hours; the genealogies in Scripture trace back only about 6, 000 years; the Flood of Noah is a fact of history, and Genesis even though is only a partial account is truly historical.

I discount any other explanation of days being "millions of years" because it' s now known, virtually beyond doubt, that there could never be enough time for the supposed mechanisms of Evolution and Darwiniansim. Creatures and plants cannot pass on truly new higher genetic information that is not already possessed and eons of time cannot change that reality. The specific information encoded and impressed upon DNA within each "kind" determines the limits to change. I might also point out that the fossil record has revealed no trace of Evolution phylogeny whatsoever of any creatures. Not only are the missing links still missing, but the crucial biological and genetical mechanism of Evolution remains missing.

As far as I am concerned, truth all along has come out of Genesis and I'm not going to ignore God who was there in favor of some infallible ideas of modern man who was not. God is truly omnipotent and He surely could create anything in any shape, manner and time-span that He so pleases Him. He changed the water to wine in less than seconds. He multiplied the fish and loaves of bread in nano-seconds. The concept of a 7 day week comes only from Genesis.

In rereading my post I see I made an error in the last paragraph.

The sentence should read: As far as I am concerned, truth all along has come out of Genesis and I'm not going to ignore God who was there in favor of some FALLIBLE ideas of modern man who was not. God is truly omnipotent and He surely could create anything in any shape, manner and time-span that so pleases Him. He changed the water to wine in less than seconds. He multiplied the fish and loaves of bread in nano-seconds. The concept of a 7 day week comes only from Genesis.

KFC---thanks for the very interesting link. Good point about the word for day or 24 hour period, "Yom".

There are some scholars that suggest the Hebrew was actually written, "And god re-created the heavens and the earth". By most, it is called the "Gap Theory". It basically states: There are a variety of interpretations of Genesis 1 that suggest there is a gap of time between verses 1 and 2 that is not explicitly mentioned. This general idea is known as the Gap Theory, though there is not just one “Gap Theory” but a number of similar theories. The primary motivation for putting forward this view both historically and today is to provide a means to view Genesis that allows for the Earth (and the universe) to be very old. There are also some who argue for a gap between 1:1 and 1:2 for theological reasons.


It would make sense, afterall. The destruction of the dinousaurs, the fact that the earth is much older than 6,000 years... all would be explained if the phrase was actually "re-created". God also has a history of destroying his creations and starting over. Remember Noah and the flood? God yet again re-created his creation.

Here's a pretty good article explaining:

Link

I believe we live in a universe created without design.
I believe in the powerful metaphorical Truth of the Christian Bible's creation story.

An excellent book recommendation on the subject, btw:

Link

I believe the days are metaphorical to give people a grasp on the concept. I find it excruciatingly hard to believe that a timeless deity would pick at random 7, 24 hour Earth days when the Earth didn't even exist. Also...why did he waste so much time screwing around...he could have done all that stuff in about 5 minutes and rested for the rest of the day and 6 others...think about the work week on that one.

Honestly, the Bible is basically a big ol' collection of stories some that may be based on actual events but I don't think everything in there actually happened this way and that...it's more of a general concept using events to illustrate a point. The actual development took billions of years for all this stuff to be as it is now. You find me a cave painting that illustrates dinosaurs eating people dating back to around 6,000 years ago and I might listen to you...to me the Earth is 4.567 billion years old and the universe is 13.7 billion years old...a little longer than a week.

~Zoo

Lulapilgrim,

I appreciate your post, but I've requested no debate. You have not stated your postion (that I can tell anyway), but rather opposed another's point of view. For this reason I am deleting your post. Please feel free to post YOUR opinion.

Thanks for participating.

but rather opposed another's point of view. For this reason I am deleting your post. Please feel free to post YOUR opinion.

I don't mean to question your methods QOD, but wouldn't Lulapilgrim's response/comments be his opinions even if he is opposing someone elses comments? And why can't there be no debate, wouldn't that be how you learn other people's point of view? I'm just wondering!

forever,

Mostly it's because it's just the way I want it. My sandbox and such....

I'm exploring faith and debating and argueing might just turn me off to christianity all together - which has happened in the past. The point is that I want to know what individuals believe and why he/she believes it. I don't want to know why the other person is wrong. It's Ok for you to hold a different opinion, and to state that opinion but I don't see the good of argueing mainly because much of the subject of belief is so much based on faith.

That was my initial reaction as well. The post that QOD deleted had to do with Theistic Evolution which is akin to the Gap theory. How that would turn her off from Christianity is beyond me, but then again, like she says, it's her sandbox.

That was my initial reaction as well. The post that QOD deleted had to do with Theistic Evolution which is akin to the Gap theory. How that would turn her off from Christianity is beyond me, but then again, like she says, it's her sandbox.

The reason it was deleted was that it was based on another person's thread and was argumentative (at least to me). Now if you had stated that you had a different opinion and explained it, I would have let it stand, but it specifically referred to another poster and made an argument (again my opinion) that they were wrong - but maybe I just don't know enough to realize what was really going on. I'm not perfect ya know.

Oh, and regarding argument turning me off to christianity you could refer to responses in Question #3 Link where KFC and I had this interaction.

KFC

Reasoning together has it's benefits. We can learn from one another as iron sharpens iron.

QoD

I see your point KFC and it's a good one. I just don't want my search for faith to become so heated that I'm completely turned off to christianity all together. Maybe it's wrong of me to lump everyone together, but I see the point of faith and 'religion' as building people up and learning, rather than proving why 'I'm right and you're wrong.' Just like you wrote - iron on iron - meaning that we're essentially the same and we should help eachother.So, yes, reasoning together as you state it is very benefitial, debating and/or argueing is not (at least not for me).

And I agree here, senseless debate is useless. But please don't give up on what Christ would have YOU to do because you see others in heated debates. You have every right to stay out of that and for the most part is alot healthier to do so. Just keep searching until you find somebody that can help you learn and grow. I know we can't walk with God until we know him. So it's important to get to know him so we can walk and work for HIM. I call it WWW (not world wide web).....Seek God's WISDOM, WALK with him and then WORK for him. Only then you realize it's really HE working thru you.

It looks like you are on the right track tho. It's not about proving right and wrong but about educating and elevating. Reaching and teaching is a good thing.

Keep on keeping on.......