hahahahahah BUSTED!!!

Since God is truth. And we know that truth does not change. God, therefore, does not change. He is the same today, yesterday and forever.



everything we do starts with a thought. Everything. Every movement we make regardless knowingly or unknowingly comes from the brain. My son researches and works on the brain and we have really good discussions. There's a saying I like to quote from time to time. It goes like this.

Sow a thought, reap an action
Sow an action, reap a habit
Sow a habit, reap a destiny

I'm not sure where your reasoning is coming from, but it's very faulty and not logical Sodaiho. It sounds very flowery but it's like a well without water.



I only have two words for this: Orthodox Judaism.

If anyone is doing any attacking here it's you as QOD has so pointed out. I have yet to say anything about your belief or Buddhism. I love the Jewish religion and am very grateful for it. I think the Jews are the greatest proof of the validiy of the scriptures and are still the people chosen by God.

Ugh. Sundays. That boring day of hangover and malaise that preceed Monday...

I see ritual in a different way that you do. I think ritual has a place for many people and maybe it works for you and them. But it doesn't work for me. I've seen it in my whole life.

But maybe we define ritual in a different way. When I speak of ritual I think specifically in light of worship in a church. Such things as a benediction, the apostles' creed, the Lord's prayer. This is NOT to say that I believe they don't have value - they have the utmost value and are sacred. But for me being ritualistic about them reduces them to a rote act in which they have less meaning. After memorizing and reciting them in church for years their meanings become lost. I'd much rather study, contemplate, and exercise them. In this way they do indeed help me learn discipline and focus.

I hold the same view of a rote prayer over a meal. It's more meaningful and genuine if I earnestly pray individual prayers at each.

The Catholic Church interprets it this way and see if it makes sense to you

The words, "He rested" mean that after the sith day, after the creation of man, God created no new kind of being. He rested from this particular work, i.e. from creating.

With the creation of man, God's plan of creation was completed

Sorry Lola and KFC, your explanation creates more problem than it solves.

the Day of rest that God supposedly took was after the creation of the Earth and the Heavens, their governing laws and whatever within them. Man's creation came later .... much much later.

To say that He is finished with the business of Creation after Man's creation has no basis in what He said. To say "God's plan of creation was completed" is very presumptuous since His palns are only for Him to know and no one else knows what they are.

You say "no matter the translation", i think it matters a lot and i believe it is the translation that injected "rested" in His statement. i wish the original "Text of God's word" is there somewhere so we can see what kind of meaning it really implies within the context of the whole topic not just translation using a dictionary. As you certainly know, the same word can mean different meaning depends on the context. In English for example, the word "mean" can imply so many meanings and if you dont know the context you cant correctly translate it. I think that is what happened here. God does not rest because He does not tire and His powers including Creation has no end or limit. We cant impose our limited understanding on His unlimited powers or plans.

The writers made it very clear that we can KNOW his "revealed" plan for mankind

That is my point KFC. it is the writers, not HIm who say these things. and it is not only one writer, they are many.

these writers wrote what they think He said NOT what He said. He specified to whom he revealed his words. only words from those messengers count, all others are just their understanding not His words.

his plans were revealed to his friends.

So His firends know God's plans? so the unseen is known to them too?

So His friends are All-Knowing too? just like HIm?

Amazing way of thinking about God. I tell you that.

KFC: Of course you have attacked my beliefs and practices, you just are so wrapped up in your own holiness that you cannot see it. What is "old testament" or the notion that your faith is the only true faith, your God the only true God, your particular brand of belief the only true belief, but an attack on any other testament or faith system? You also believe Jews are going to hell when we die. To exist as proof of the validity of how you corrupt the Hebrew scripture is a poor excuse to live. Excuse me if I don't quite appreciate your gratefulness.

QOD: Lets see if I can address some of your stuff.

A wave is a wave, yet it is also water. No contradiction, just different points of understanding. We can hold both a relative truth (wave) and an absolute truth (water) in our minds at the same time. Nothing is either/or. Either/or is a categorical delusion created by how our btrains process information. But just because it processes it that way doesn't mean it is that way. The universe is God, God is the universe. You said so yourself in your reply re onmipresence. He is also in this computer, then, and in the earth beneath your feet and in the distant stars. No contradiction. He is also process. Moreover, QOD, the Hebrew you quote regarding God's name is a verb. Moreover, it is deliberately not written in the Torah. We are not to make a graven image, so mysterious and undefinable is this God. The complete phrase is "I Am That I Am, I Will Be What I Will Be." Process.

As to attacks on Christianity. Let me say a few more words. I do not attack Christianity. Certain forms of Christianity attack me. You said yourself my faith was a false religion. I do not believe Jesus was the son of God in the same way you do. To say so is not an attack. It is a statement of my belief. Forto believe otherwise would make me an idolator. Moreover, it was Jesus who attacked the Temple, Jesus who, enraged, referred to priests and rabbis as snakes and vipers, hardly the words and deeds of an enlightened master.

Consider my world. In nearly every post, Christians refer to my scripture as an "Old Testament." Suggesting it is dated and not relevant. Moreover, I doubt any Christian would consider Sutras scripture at all. Yet, these are scripture for millions of people. Do I consider these attacks? No. Just ill-informed. I do think, however, it is disingenuous for Christians use the Hebrew scripture to justify their positions regarding a whole array of modern issues, but then as soon as the scripture is used as a litmus test to assess their behavior they cart out the old saws about Jesus coming to fulfill the scripture and offer a new covenent.

KFC seems to suggest that Christians don't have a sabbath nor are they obligated to keep it holy, yet I have understood that many Christian congrations in the US would like to see the Hebrew scripture's decalogue in public buildings and many support so-called "blue laws."

Oy.

Christians often speak as if they have a corner on the truth. How else does one characterize this but "narrow"? It certainly isn't inclusive or accepting of difference and diversity, some of the hallmarks of broadmindedness. So, these are not attacks, rather they are me holding a mirror to your words.

I would love to have a conversation with people of other faiths whered each faith member respected the other and thought carefully about the terms they use before they toss them out as if they were either accepted universally or value neutral.

Be well.

huh? How do you figure? He took six days to create it all and on the seventh he rested. You're saying he created on the eighth and ninth and so on?

Have you even read Genesis?



says who? Not the writers of the OT or the NT so who are you depending on for your information?

The writers made it very clear that we can KNOW his "revealed" plan for mankind. Jesus made it quite clear saying to his Apostles that they were not like "servants" who didn't know their master's plans but they were friends and his plans were revealed to his friends.

So maybe we're both right on this one.

Man's creation came later .... much much later.

Ummm, my Bible says:

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created he them.

Further down

Gen 1:31
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the SIXTH day.

and into the second chapter:

Gen 2: 1-2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

We cant impose our limited understanding on His unlimited powers or plans

I can only presume that you do not believe in the infallability of His Word?

Are we to assume that rest is always associated with tiredness? Can a person or God not rest out of satisfaction for a job well done?

well the proof is on you I guess. You are very accusatory. You started right in on #11 before I even said a word to you. When I responded it was in kindness and informative, not at all attacking you. I can't help it if the truth seems to be attacking you. I have a right to my belief as you do yours.

From what I can see by your reply you are thinking the term "Old Testament" is an attack? Well it's not meant to be. To a Christian there are two testaments and to differentiate we say Old and New. We hold them both up as two halves of one whole. So you are way off base with your comments.



This just proves to me you have an ax to grind that has nothing to do with this thread. Where did I say this? Ever?

I believe Abraham is in Paradise. I believe Moses is in Paradise as well. Jacob, Isaac, Gideon, etc. Jesus was a Jew. All the Apostles were Jews. They are all with God. The early Christians were almost all Jews in the very beginning.

No, you my friend have a hangup with religion, not me. It's not about religion. It's about relationship. I have a feeling you don't even know your own Law and Prophets.



please, don't even go there. I'm seeing no such thing from you.

You don't want respect. You want me to shut up. I'm quite aware of that.

Dear KFC, My goodness. How to reply to you? First of all, let me say as gently as possible that I do not want you to shut up or go away or anyhing of the sort. What I want from you is what I want from anyone, basic respect. Often my replies to Christians are in the same vein as their replies to me. Fire to fire and so forth. Because one person doesn't see the fire does not mean it doesn't burn. When you say that you never said Jews were going to hell, perhaps this is true. However, is it not a tenet of your faith that people who do not accept Jesus as their personal savior are? And if you are a believer in this faith, would you not hold this to be true? If not, then please forgive my assumption.

You are correct. I re-read your reply. I admit, as I always have, to some fierce defensiveness in contact with Christians of the fundamental sort. You know why.

I think we are actually on a very similar page with regard to your internal/external explication ofthe Pharisees. As we as with QOD's POV regarding ritual and rote learning. Perhaps this warrents some exploration.

Zen Buddhists holdthat our lineage comes from direct "mind -to - mind" transmission of the truth. The transmission is outside of scripture, words and letters. It means, essentially, a recognition of what is already present within each of us, our enlightened true nature. The transmission, then, is like a seal recognizing the bearer's witness to himself. Now, how do we get there? It is like a Christian asking the question, how do we know God? The answer, as I see it, does not reside in study of the scripture alone, though it is clearly a part, but als with practice. We learn from walking in the footsteps of our master, whether that master is Jesus or Moses or Buddha. To walk in their footsteps means to follow them in their actual lives. How did they live? What did they do? One of the things I believe is so very special about Jesus was his constant indfullness practice. Here is a man who knew he was breathing. He knew he was sipping wine. He knew he was listening or speaking. He did these things with his full and complete awareness. We should emulate this. So, it is not about the rules, you are correct. It is not about the rituals. Also correct. These are just vehicles. And just so, they are necessary.

KFC, I hold no personal animosity toward you. It is a challenge though, isn't it, as people from very different views sit down together, each hlding tightly our beliefs about the other?

You have, for example sid on several occasions that you doubt I haveread the Hebrew scriptures. I have repeated on numerous occasions than not only have I read them, I have mmade them as study and a major part of my life. They form a basis of much of my religious life. This said, my study and understanding of these scriptures is radically different from yours. Neither trumps he other, but to state a difference is not to criticize. Yet, I hear from you and other Cristians that my people's understanding oftheir own scripture, a gift we have given to the world, is in serious error. Can you see how this might rattle a cage just a little?

Be well.

Sodaiho,

It would be much appreciated if you would review posts and then to address the correct person. You are attributing many things to me that I have not said. This is making the conversation unnecessarily convoluted.

Thank You.

QOD, I will try. I thought I was responding to you, or to KFC or to whoever. I must be mistaken. Can you point out where I have attritibuted to you what you have not said?

You may email me off list if you prefer. My address is buddhist99@yahoo.com

I have no truck with any Christian point of view. I regard myself as a Christian, albeit one who is cynical, but I remain beholden to a Greater Power. Be free to have your say but just give a thought to the fact that the scriptures are not the be-all or end all. The problem with trying to justify any life-style by the scriptures is that two thousand year old texts do not apply to the reality of life today!

Sodaiho,

From reply #35


Here for instance, it was lulapilgrim in reply #30, who quoted this scripture.

Also from #35:

It's unclear to me who the 'you' in this statement is.

From your reply #25:


I see no message previous to that in which I dismissed your faith. Another confusion.

These are a few examples. I'd suggest maybe quoting a person then responding. Or even responding in separate replies. Maybe I'm being nit-picky here, but I get lost in your discussions AND your credibilty is doubtful to me when you cannot even adress the proper person.

QOD, You are correct! I am embarrassed. Thank you for pointing these out. Good suggestions, too. I will be more careful in the future. As an aside, I struggle with the quote function here as it seems to place the quote automatically at the top of the page while I may have already written in reply to some one else. Also, with so many Christian POVs it is hard to make you each clear in my mind. I will work on this, as I know that I need to. Just so, not all Buddhists are Mashayana or Hinayana. Not all are Zen or Tibetan or Vietnamese etc. In such discussions it is far too easy to get caught in a broad brush both when painting and when being painted. I bow to you.