SODAIHO POSTS:







Sodaiho, Good day. Just so you know without doubt where I'm coming from, I am Catholic and with all my mind, heart, soul and strength, I know, love, serve and worship Almighty God through the practice of the Catholic Faith and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church. I believe Mosaic Judaism which has been perfected and completed in Christianity is the only revealed religion from God.

I realize that Buddhism knows nothing of God in the Christian sense of the word. But you have obviously studied Judaism, claim the Hebrew Scriptures as a basis of your practice of Zen Buddhism and have indicated that you know something of Jesus, and so you cannot be excused here for ignorance. Based on your knowledge, why do you dissemble and deconstruct Christianity in order to hold up Zen Buddhism?

You posted, “I am not a Christian and I see Jesus as a good, if not sometimes misguided man. He was certainly not an enligtened Master and not the incarnation of God,...”


In frankness, I find it pure folly on your part that you would say that and compare Jesus with Moses and Buddha. There are no comparisons or similarities. Jesus is God and He said so. “I and the Father are one.” The Jews knew it and said, “ For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” Christ accepted supreme homage implied by the words of St. Thomas, “My Lord and my God.” Jesus would not have let such an expression go without correction had He not been God. We know that if ordinary men, like Moses or Siddhartha Gautama, claimed to be God, they would either be insane or untruthful. But Christ was not insane. He was ever a model of self-control and the wisest Teacher and Legislator the world has ever seen and will ever see. Nor was He a liar. His moral character forbids the possibility of a lie. Christ claimed to be God. He accepted the adoration due to God. Christ is God. The proof we have that Jesus Christ is God is His perfect fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament. Christ really lived and His personal character, His teachings, His miracles, and chiefly His Resurrection. His work in establishing a Church, which is at the same time both human and divine, and has outlived empires and human institutions against tremendous opposition. Then there is the perpetual vitality of His sway over human hearts.

Siddhartha Gautama, the original Buddha, in sanskrit, “the Enlightened One”, taught the uncertain philosophical conclusions of his own limited and finite mind. Jesus taught infallible and divine truth. The fruit of the teaching of Buddha is a merely temporal proficiency in an imperfect human knowledge and conjecture. The fruit of the doctrines of Christ is eternal happiness. Siddhartha Gautama, “Buddha” was a mere man. Jesus was God. Buddha was a humanitarian. He was kind to his fellow men from motives of human and natural sympathy, not from motives of love of God and for His own sake, love of fellow man. St.Paul explains the uselessness of humanitarianism from the religious point of view, “If I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor and have not charity (supernatural love of God and man), it profitith me nothing.” Christ was essentially religious, not a mere humanitarian. He demanded that the love of God should be the motive of all our good works, not the love of our fellow man for their own sakes, God being simply ignored or not believed.


Jesus was publicly humiliated, hated, spat upon, scourged, crowned with thorns and crucified because of who He IS and what He said. He was believed by some and rejected by many. Not me, but the Holy Catholic Church (whose Deposit of Faith rests on Sacred oral Tradition and Sacred Scripture) teaches that those who reject Him will be rejected by His Father on the last day which will be the end of time as we know it and the beginning of eternity. Have you ever considered that the universe on which you place so much trust seemingly above all else will be no more?

Peace.

Lulapilgrim, thank you for your questions. Let me try to address them for you. I appreciate youre Catholicism. It is a wonderful faith. I even studied it with an Irish priest back in the late sixties. We can and do disagree on the point that Mosaic Judaism is the completion of anything. It is Judaism.



I do not use Hebrew scriptures as a basis for my practice of Zen. I am both Jewish and a Zen Buddhist priest, although I admit I attend synagogue primariliy for my wife. My study of Judaism has been nearly lifelong. It includes a long study of the Hebrew scripture, the Talmud, as well as scores of other theological texts and modern biblical writings. I have a minor in religion obtained from a southern college steeped in fundamentalist Christianity. I have studied Zen Buddhism for over twenty years, and am an ordained priest in the Soto Zen lineage. I have been granted Dharma Tramsmission from my Teacher.

My rabbi and I have co-taught classes in Jewish meditation in the synagogue. Over the years we have become close friends and colleagues.

My knowledge of Jesus comes through both undergraduate academic study, as well as close contact with fundamentalist Christians of the Bob Jones University variety, hence I am a tad suspect of them. They typically want to "complete" me

As to your quote, I did not feel I was deconstructing Chistianity, just offering my unChristian point of view.



Actually, there are many similarities. You say Jesus was God. I say he was not. The statement "I an the Father are One." Is silimar to the statement we Zen Buddhists say frequently, "I and the universe are one." Jesus could very easily have been pointing the the essentail non-dualistic basis of the universe. All three men went out in the wilderness. All three had eye-opening, heart-rending experiences. All three performed miracles. All three lead people out of suffering. There are several books regarding the similarities of Jesus, the Teachings of Christianity, and of Zen. Such comparisons are not uncommon.

You say Jesus was a model of self control. I don't know. He semed pretty upset in the Temple. Buddha nor moses lied to my knowledge. Both of these men were of high moral character.

The rabbis did not agree with you and the early church as regards Jesus' messianic claims. There is no evidence of a resurrection other than the self-referential sort listed in your scripture which is not bible to me and other non-Christians.

I see all three men as having lived out great lives. Buddha for one walked the earth for over forty years after his enlightenment helping people to end their suffering. Moses was shepard to the Israelites and lead them out of Egypt to the promised land. All three have outlived tyrants bent on destroying them and their followers. And Jesus, Christians say, died for our sins.



Buddha taught from an enlightened, all encompassing mind, completely in touch with the universe and its deepest truths. There was nothing uncertain about his teaching and the earth was his witness. The fruit of the Buddha's teaching is that we should all know ourselves, inttimately. And in this knowledge we know the universe. Buddha taught how to completely end suffering and there have been many buddhas to follow. Buddha loved for its own sake, knowing that love was the essential core of the universe. There is no difference between God, Buddha, and Man. Such lines are fictions created by our minds. Drop away the mind and the truth reveals itself. This is a truth all contempletives come to discover, including Christian contemplatives. His teaching has clearly withstood the test of time.



Here is the rub. It is terrible that human beings have been and continue to be so ill-treated. Jesus is not alone in his suffering. Yet, for Jesus, he had to die in order to fulfill the prophesy as he understood it. I don't reject God, just understandings of him. I sense the Infinite is very, very large. How large? We cannot imagine as the end of it would presume a limit where none exists. My God is not a personal God then. At least not in the sense Christians claim, but I do have God in my life. As a parent I could not imagine killing my son. How could I imagine and justify a belief in a God who would kill his children? Or torturing them in hell forever? This notion is barbaric.


Lots covered here. I hope you are safe and have a good night. I am on my way to synagogue for Passover Seder. We will celebrate God and our freedom from slavery. I will also celebrate my freedom from suffering as a result of Zen practice. I will honor your God and the sacrifice he made in service to others. All who walk in such a path are bodhisattvas in this sense. Be well.

I believe Think Aloud that God spoke thru these writers. As I wrote on my thread, if we can use pencils to write down our thoughts don't you think God can use man to write down his? I believe the Bible is God's letter to us. I also have studied this bible for more than 30 years and am continually amazed at how the whole thing written by so many over a period of 1500 years can fit so well together, like pieces of a puzzle. Usually those against it have hardly (if at all) opened the cover.



in a nutshell? Yes. Remember Thomas the doubter? Jesus said what to him? "Blessed are you because you see, but more blessed are those who believe but cannot see." We see thru the eyes of faith the spiritual that the world dismisses and "will not" see. It's not "can not" it's "will not."



I believe I have given you respect that I have not received from you. You have constantly and consistently run down the Christian faith. Tell me you don't believe in it. That's ok. But don't tell me my Savior was misguided and my view is so narrow that light barely enters is not loving lingo Sodaiho. It's nothing more than attacks. I have not attacked you at all only explaining (using scripture as backup)where I'm coming from. I even used OT scripture knowing you don't honor or believe in the NT. You did not respond to anything I wrote concerning that I noticed. Did you even think on those beloved scriptures of the OT?

My guess Sodaiho? You've been hurt by "so called" or immature Christians. I am not like that but you've linked them to me because of it. I am strong in my belief, yes, but not at the expense of another. I've been involved in so many cults and groups and now have a relationship with Christ that is so freeing that I want others to have the same freedom I now enjoy. And one more thing that may surprise you and show you really how off you were earlier......

my great grandfather was a Jewish Rabbi. I have Jewish Blood running thru my veins. His daughter married a Catholic and that's where I ended up. I have since left the CC. My Uncle Harry a devout Jewish Atheist and also communist was very vocal in his un-belief. So believe me, I've heard it all.

I just have to ask this from your Jewish perspective and out of curiosity. Why Buddah? Why not Christ? Christ totally (and I've checked this out thoroughly) fulfilled all the OT prophecies concerning his first coming. I'm really studying the OT prophets right now.....Micah, Isaiah, Amos, Malachi, etc....even Moses wrote about Christ.



but only one changed the whole world without even picking up a pen. Only one gave his life for the world. Only one was resurrected from the dead. No one else can make this claim. There were many witnesses that wrote of this great time in history during the same generation of people that could refute their claims.



no, because you are not God. It's AGAPE love. When you studied the OT scriptures did you notice that when it talked about God creating the universe it used the term "fingers." and when it described the future redemption it mentions "arm" or "bare his arm?" It's all throughout......basically what it's saying is that it was a breeze for him to create the universe, but it was hard work for him to put his son on that Cross. Do a reference sometime on those words.

As far as hell? We put ourselves there. He doesn't put us there. That's where choice comes in. Moses said it choose between life and death. We will have no one to blame but ourselves if we find ourselves there. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for us. it's our choice to follow them there.

Thank you for mentioning this. I think it's telling that the contemplatives from all religions, have a view that is more similar to contemplatives from other religions, than to non-contemplatives in their own religion.

A question for the Christians,

I just read an article about the gospel according to Judas WWW Link.

What is your reaction to this? Can it be dismissed because it is not in the bible? I am also curious as to which version of the bible is the literal word of God and how it was determined to be so? I appreciate anyone who takes the time to respond, but I have a request to make if you do choose to respond. I do no believe the bible (or any other ancient religious text) is the word of God, so citing what the bible says won't explain anything to me.

You want it straight about the Gospel of Judas? It's rubbish. It's old news. It's filled with lies. It's dismissed because it was never accepted by the early church to begin with. Never. Remember, Jesus called Judas, "the son of Perdition." and that was not a good thing.

Version? Literal? I think you may mean infallible? The bible was only infallible in the original Gk and Hebrew in which it was first penned. What we have now are copies of the original translated into our own languages. I believe some are more true to the original Gk & Hebrew than others but there are many very good versions out there. We have over 5,000 ORIGINAL copies. More than any other work of antiquity.

Now, I didn't take up much time, because what you are saying here is....it doesn't matter what you say, I'm not going to listen anyway. So why bother?

So since I've answered you your question, please answer mine. Have you ever read the gospel in it's entirety? It's only four short books that you could read in a few nights to at least get a basic understanding of.

Which English translation is generally considered to be the most accurate among Christian scholars?



If you explain things by citing the bible you are correct, I won't listen. That is why I said what I did. I didn't want you or anyone else to waste your time writing a response that wouldn't have any meaning me. I was being considerate of your time. If you have more to say on the subject outside of biblical referencing, then I will most definitely listen.



Yes, but it was when I was a young kid. So more accurately, no I have not. Why do you ask?

I can tell you one thing...if you have to work on a Sunday and don't show up, your ass is getting canned.

~Zoo

KFC, why do you "have to ask this question" followed by pointing out your theory that Christ was in the Hebrew scripture? Your theory is an after the fact construction, rather like horoscopes do with our lives, and thus hardly evidence of any such thing.

Why Buddha? Because Buddha was a perfecly enlightened being and lived out his life in that enlightened state. As a result, he too, changed the world without a pen.



Its interesting, this. From a Zen point of view, we see there is no such thing as birth and death. We re constantly changing, made, unmade. The real "we" is the stuff underneath it all, our Buddha-nature. Resuurection, in the sense you use it, is dualistic thinking and, as such, is a delusion, from a Buddhist point of view. Now, from a Jewish perspective, the witnesses you claim had a vested interest in Jesus being considered the Messiah. No independent person saw this man after his death. And to argue this point renders the point itself ugly, doesn't it? You believe with perfect faith in your savior. That is wonderful! I believe in perfect faith that my practice has freed me from suffering. That, too, is wonderful! Both ways get us to the same place. God is very wise.



You misunderstood me. My point was that a compassion God would not kill his own child, nor would he banish him to eternal torture. It is the theological position that I believe barbaric. From a Zen perspective, hell and heaven, as well as all the other realms of our existence are of our own making caused by our own deluded, angry, or greedy minds. Free yourself from these three poisons and we free ourselves from concepts such as these.

A reference in a Christian serach will get me exactly the same ex-post facto material you reference. What's the point? KFC, please don't misunderstand me. I think its wonderful you have found yourself in Christ. I would hope you would think it wonderful that I find the Buddha in me. In the end, in spite of what you think, I know these to be the very same thing.



I quite agree with you here, as I said earlier. Our choice is to live out heavenly lives or create hells and other awful realms. However, you do not mean choice in behavior do you? You do not mean feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, being with the dying. You mean choice in belief and the consequence of belief regarding the self. Believe in Jesus as the Messiah or face eternal damnation? Is this it? If so, it is such a self-centered belief system! Frankly, there is far too much present moment damnation and suffering to concern us. I choose to be of service here and now.

Be well.

why then thank you Abe. I certainly don't want to waste my time either. I try NOT to use scripture that will only fall on deaf ears anyhow. There is much outside of scripture that while it can't prove the bible is inspired can prove the facts inside are correct. Many modern excavations and archeological digs have more than shown this. The bible is full of names, places, things that have been verified outside of scripture.



well because if you're going to refute it, shouldn't you at least KNOW what you are refuting? Shouldn't you at least read it? Otherwise aren't you possibly leaving your eternal destiny in someone else's hands that you've been listening to? I had someone tell me the other day that the the Protestant Bible is diff than the Catholic bible. I asked her what the differences were. She looked like a deer caught in the headlights. She had never read either. She had no answer.

I mean, if there really is a God (and of course I absolutely believe this to be true) and you are at the Great White Throne Judgment and he asks you what you did with his word what are you going to stammer? Ummmmm well, eh, God, I believed what the others said about you? I um...didn't....um.......check it out for myself. How was I supposed to know? What if he says....."well I sent others to tell you. But you chose not to listen to them. Why not?"

See this is what happened all thru biblical prophecy. God sent prophets to his people and the people rejected the messages, scorned them, beat them and killed them even but the prophet's words always came to pass. By then it was too late.

As far as the versions that are the closest to the original languages....the NASB is really close. The ESV is good that way also. But there's nothing wrong with the good ol' NIV and NKJV and KJV either.

it's not a theory tho. It's very clear he not only met the requirements he met every single one to the letter. What do you do with Isaiah 53 for instance?



so you think he changed the world as did Christ? Even our very calender was affected. Why I was asking is because the Hebrew scriptures spoke of the Messiah that would come. It doesn't mention Buddah or even a hint of him in the scriptures.



well you have to think about this. Almost everyone of those witnesses died very violent deaths because of what they saw. They COULDN"T deny it. I mean people may live for a lie but are they willing to die for one? Peter, for instance, did an about face. What made him change his mind?



God is compassionate.....that's why HE DID do this. It was because of his love for us. He knew we were in a predicament. He knew we could NOT save ourselves. He came and took our place. That's why he did it. So compassion is correct here.

Never does God banish any of his children to hell. NEVER. Those that are following Satan to hell are NOT his children. They are the children of the devil. There are two fathers. We are all his creation, but we are not all his children.



No Sodaiho, it's the complete opposite. It's God centered. What you are espousing is man-centered. You've got it backwards. You're doing the good deeds not so much for others as you are for yourself. Be honest here. As a Christian, we are also supposed to do these good works, but it's to give the glory to God, not take it for ourselves. Our good works are done in the name of Jesus because of what he did for us. It's our gratefulness to him that propels us forward.

LULAPILGRIM POSTS:



SODAIHO POSTS:



To me, Christ's Crucification was none other than an incomprehensible act of love. It's been nearly 2,000 years since the Crucification and we still "keep watch" over Him and remember His sacrifice for us.


You say that "He had to die in order to fulfill the prophesy as He understood it." Again, this is you dissembling Christianity. Have you ever read the Old and the New Testament? Christ didn't HAVE to die, He died willingly. Christ DIDN'T die "to fulfill the prophesy as he understood it." Christ died to redeem us, you and me, from our sins before God.


Take Psalms 69(68)for example which explains Christ in His Passion declaring the greatness of His sufferings.
V.5, of His suffering, "They are multiplied above the hairs of my head, who hate me without cause. My enimies are grown strong who have wrongfully persecuted me: then did I pay that which I took not away." This means Christ in His Passion made restitution of what He had not taken away, by suffering the punishment due to our sins and so repairing the injury we had done to God. He took upon our sins and in the Garden of Gethesame, He sweat blood, knowing that while He was dying on the Cross for them, they would still be committed. That's when He was indeed ALONE in His suffering.

V.8 "Because for thy sake I have bourne reproach, shame hath covered my face.
V. 10, For the zeal for thy house hath eaten me up, and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
V. 21, In thy sight are all they that afflict me; my heart hath expected reproach and misery. And I look for one that would grieve together with me, but there was none: and for one that would comfort me, I found none.
V. 22, And they me gall for my food and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.


Sodaiho, this is from Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (313-350), bishop of Jerusalem and Doctor of the Church. He writes how Christ willingly gave up His life.

“My appointed time draws near. I am to celebrate the Passover in your house”
And wouldest thou be persuaded that He came to His passion willingly? The others, who foreknow it not, die unwillingly; but He spoke before of His passion: “Behold, the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified” (Mt 26,2). But knowest thou wherefore this Friend of man shunned not death? It was lest the whole world should perish in its sins. Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man shall be betrayed, and shall be crucified (Mt 20,13); and again, He steadfastly set His face to Jerusalem (Lk 9,51).

And wouldest thou know certainly, that the Cross is a glory to Jesus? Hear His own words, not mine. Judas had become ungrateful to the Master of the house, and was about to betray Him. Having but just now gone forth from the table, and drunk His cup of blessing, in return for that drought of salvation he sought to shed righteous blood. He who did eat of His bread, was lifting up his heel against Him...Then said Jesus, “The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified” (Jn 12,23). Seest thou how He knew the Cross to be His proper glory?...Not that He was without glory before: for He was glorified with the glory which was before the foundation of the world (Jn 17,5). He was ever glorified as God; but now He was to be glorified in wearing the Crown of His patience.

He did not give up His life by compulsion, nor was He put to death by murderous violence, but of His own accord. Hear what He says: “I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again”. I yield it of My own choice to My enemies; for unless I chose, this could not be. He came therefore of His own set purpose to His passion, rejoicing in His noble deed, smiling at the crown, cheered by the salvation of mankind; not ashamed of the Cross, for it was to save the world.

This scripture alludes to the coming Messiah. The question remains, how to prove your fellow was the one? The Rabbis have come, in all but the most orthodox variety, to believe the messiah is more an messianic age than person, the body of Man.



Yes, I do. Buddha is as alive as your Christ. The scripture does not mention Jesus, either. For millions of people the Buddha Way is an example of a pure path to salvation from suffering. This Buddha Way is very close to that espoused by your savior.

Our calender is only a convention. Jews still live by the Hebrew Calendar; Chinese by the Chinese calendar.



Everyone that was alive then is dead now. OK. So? Faith and belief are wonderful things, but we must be very careful in them. I still wonder why there is no independent record of such a miraculous event as someone walking out of a tomb who had just died. It is good for you to believe this, it is essential to your faith. I have no desire to change your mind. For me from another very different, and several millenia old faith, I need a bit more.



Thank you, KFC, perhaps here is some common ground. Zen practice informs us there is no self, none at all. We act in accordance with what is before us to do. The child cries, we comfort. The dogs need waking, we walk them. All very natural. I do not behave for myself, but for others, including God. And I do so without any fear at all. Not of man, not of God, as I live in accordance with Him.

I suspect you do the same. How wonderful this is!

Be well.

LULAPILGRIM, thank you. Yes, I have not only read these books, but studied them as well. There is no "Old" testament. There is the Hebrew Scriptures. To refer to it in this way is an insult to Judaism. Christ may have died willingly, but he had to die to meet the scriptural context he was attempting to live out. I don't know how this is dissembling. I think it is rather straightforward; just a differing point of view from the accepted Christian one perhaps.



The psalms predate Jesus of Nazareth. This was not Jesus speaking, but David. This psalms speaks to our human condition, our suffering, and is a petition to God for clarity and strength. We are all alone in our suffering. Buddha taught us to practice with this. Being present in the midst of the valley of the shadow of death teaches us there is no valley, no shadow, no death. As the Great Heart of Wisdom Sutra points out: "No hindrance of mind, therefore, no fear."



I have not argued that he did not willingly give up his life, though the fact that he needed someone to betry him is a tad suspect. If he wanted to die so much, he certainly could have walked up to the Roman authorities and told them he was God.

No, he needed to die and in a certaibn way or else, as he understood it, his entire ministry would have been lost. Too bad, really. I think the deeper messages of your Jesus are very good. I especially enjoy the Sermon on the Mount. Now, if we would only take that Sutra to heart!

Be well.

You certainly Can Not assume that. I firmly believe that HIS WORDS are infallable. That again HIS WORDS not the writers words.

if by "Rested" they meant He finished creating "OUR" Universe, i can accept that but not that He is "Finished with creation". We cant assume that. HIM, His plans, His powers and all his attributes are a continuum. Nothing related to him has an end or a begining